Wednesday, December 28, 2005

Auction aftershock

As far as the auction cancellation fiasco:

Lakewood's-
  • image suffered considerably
  • its credibility diminished
  • its 'capital' with the public decreased.

The next apology will be taken that much less seriously.

It has a taken a big hit. You don't fully recover from such a significant faux pas(?) for a long time.

You hear people asking, quite understandably, "Whose running the 'Home' ''?

Whenever in any way I critique something to do with the Yeshiva, I feel an achrayus to point out: the unbelievable wellspring of Torah that gushes out of there in abundance daily. Which makes the Yeshiva unique, special and irreplaceable.

posted by Yeshiva Orthodoxy
at 7:58 AM

77 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

should we not bring reb NACHUM BARNEY BACK OR THE BARNS BACK

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Lakewood Yid said...

I cannot agree more with this posting. Although I have been a relentless critic of the stadium deal, the fact is the yeshiva is still and allways will be a special place. The fact is that the majority of the "yungerleit" are people who learn with not alot of money. Additionally, their wifes are unbelivabale for making the willing sacrifices they do in order that their husbands may learn.
That said, the stadiumdeal is just plain WRONG.

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bring back barnetsky

9:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where did he go?

9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh it's replaceable

?????????????????????????????

9:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They should never have cancelled the auction. The most they should have done (and even this I feel would have been too much) is apologize, say they made a mistake, and let the auction continue. People put tremendous amounts of work into this; the cancellation will cause very bad feelings among those who volunteer their time and goods to the yeshiva. I can't imagine that they will be willing to expend such effort and expense again. Which of course means nothing to you, who does nothing more for the yeshiva than mouth empty expressions of praise after shooting them down. What an idiot.

9:51 AM  
Blogger Just Yidding said...

I think Lakewood should put out a new auction booklet titled "DER HEIM" and have prizes that are appropriate for the old fashioned lifestyle they preach everyone to live by, such as a used '87 station wagon, a room of barethread carpet, a free Oz V'Hadar Levusha book, a shopping spree to a hand me down thrift shop, etc.

9:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

THE BARNES WE MISS YOU YOUR OLD DONORS COME WE WILL GIVE YOU AGAIN

10:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see you didn't post my comment on your behavior. Too painful, huh?

10:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Putting aside for a minute the hypocrisy some saw in this HOME auction book, and the glee of those who tried and succeeded in stopping this fundraiser...

I say, it's the continuation, nay, escalation, of the "frummer than thou" and "better than thou" syndrome. It has reached epic proportions. It's turned into an epidemic!

I don't see the difference between flaunting that "my lifestyle is better than yours" ("YOU LOWLIFE" implied) and flaunting an ostentatious lifestyle...

Both are wrong. There is a MIDDLE WAY to EVERYTHING! Tzenuas is called for in both subjects.

I don't see anyone writing letters and "dreying" a velt for THAT!

10:12 AM  
Blogger Shtender said...

I see you didn't post my comment on your behavior. Too painful, huh?

I don't remember seeing any such comment. Resend it and I'll post it if it's decently presented. We do not mind criticism.

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The mistake of publishing the "Home" auction, pales in comparison with the mistake of retracting it.
However they have no one to blame but themselfs. The type of kanoi that caused this fiasco, is a product of the small minded/mind someone else's business, mentality they preech.

10:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would not be suprised if R' Mattisyahu got too many phone calls and HE is the one who put an end to this!

10:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

However they have no one to blame but *themselfs*. The type of kanoi that caused this fiasco, is a product of the small minded/mind someone else's business, mentality they *preech*.

*Themselves
*Preach

It makes you look more intelligent if you can correctly write the language you speak.

10:52 AM  
Blogger Harry Maryles said...

I agree with anonymous. or was it... anonymous? I forget. But in any case there was nothing wrong with that auction. Lakewood had nothing to apologize for. It's to bad they are so easily swayed by the opinion of a few Ballei Battim who found such an auction to be inappropriate... or unreflective of the Yeshiva's Ruchnius ideals.

The problem is that you can only go just so far with Ruchnius. You can't eat Ruchnius. You can't pay bills with Ruchnius. Where else are you going to raise funds if not in the world of Gashmius? This auction targeted people who can aford such lifestyle choices.

I happen to know the individual behind this and she is the daughter of one of the wealthiest Askanim in Chicago (if my source is correct and she usually is). I can guarantee you their lifestyle can easily support what this brochure was "selling". This young woman probably worked very hard on this brochure. Her father is one of the most gennerous people to Mosods all over the world, no less Lakewood.

To those who complained about it and thereby causing its demise: I think they ought to come up with the bucks to repalced the lost revenue this Chinese auction would have brought in.

11:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It makes you look more intelligent if you can correctly write the language you speak.

It makes you look more intelligent if you can think.

11:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I don't remember seeing any such comment. Resend it and I'll post it if it's decently presented. We do not mind criticism."

It's posted now. It's the one that ends "What an idiot." I think it's presented decently.

11:17 AM  
Anonymous UpsetOne said...

Harry Maryles said...
I agree with anonymous. or was it... anonymous? I forget. But in any case there was nothing wrong with that auction. Lakewood had nothing to apologize for. It's to bad they are so easily swayed by the opinion of a few Ballei Battim who found such an auction to be inappropriate... or unreflective of the Yeshiva's Ruchnius ideals.


It wasn't a few ballei battim. It was many, many yungerleit who are mosser nefesh to live the lifestyle they do in order to learn. They don't have to live this way, but they feel that it's a 'choshuv' way to live.They sacrifice alot to live the way they do, and they feel like yeshiva slapped them in the face by glorifying a lifestyle which is contrary to everything they stand for.

The problem is that you can only go just so far with Ruchnius. You can't eat Ruchnius. You can't pay bills with Ruchnius. Where else are you going to raise funds if not in the world of Gashmius? This auction targeted people who can aford such lifestyle choices.

I recieved the booklet in the mail, as did most of the yeshiva mailing list. I certainly do not live that lifestyle. I could choose to, but I have different priorities in life. Yeshiva promotes those priorities. It's highly hypocrtical of them to have a fund-raising campaign which promotes the polar opposite even if the target audience can afford it. It's not about if you can afford it or not, it's if you SHOULD.

I happen to know the individual behind this and she is the daughter of one of the wealthiest Askanim in Chicago (if my source is correct and she usually is). I can guarantee you their lifestyle can easily support what this brochure was "selling". This young woman probably worked very hard on this brochure. Her father is one of the most gennerous people to Mosods all over the world, no less Lakewood.

That's neither here nor there. Her lifestyle does not enter the equation. The things that were being glorified in the auction booklet is not the ideals a yeshiva should promote.

To those who complained about it and thereby causing its demise: I think they ought to come up with the bucks to repalced the lost revenue this Chinese auction would have brought in.

I am one of those who complained, and I'm happy about it's demise. I don't learn in yeshiva anymore, but I gladly give money to Yeshiva every year. I want to help the people who are being moser nefesh to learn. The people who give up the pleasures in life for the pleasures of the afterlife. I certainly do not feel apologetic in any way. Hopefully Yeshiva learned a lesson from this. Doubtful.

11:18 AM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

Bottom line?

Martha Stewart would have been proud of the Auction Book!

11:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The type of kanoi that caused this fiasco, is a product of the small minded/mind someone else's business, mentality they preech."

In other words, he is the product of Lakewood yeshiva, and the roshei yeshiva who consistently, although foolishly, put their weight behind people of this sort. They encourage this sort of kanous; now it has bitten them.

11:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Bottom line? Martha Stewart would have been proud of the Auction Book!"

So what?

And the fact that this pathetic insight is your bottom line only demonstrates the weakness of your position.

11:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

upsetone:

Your whole long comment makes only one insubstantial point, that Home was somehow hypocritical. Give me a break. The yeshiva wasn't promoting luxury, any more than Pearl Blau promotes luxury when they raffle off a new car. It's a raffle, for crying out loud, not a lifestyle guide. You people really need to relax.

Besides, even if it was wrong, there's nothing gained by cancelling it. It just wastes mamon hekdesh, and creates bad feelings among those who work hard on behalf of yeshiva. But that means nothing to a fanatic like you. To people like you, the supposedly "moral" point trumps everything else. Never mind that there's a lack of morailty too in being mevazeh the people who worked on it, the roshei yeshiva, in wasting yeshiva's money. You're so blinded by your viewpoint, that you can't see anything else.

Of course you're not apologetic. People like you never are.

Feh!

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And the fact that this pathetic insight is your bottom line only demonstrates the weakness of your position.

Work on developing a sense of humor. It'll help you get through the rough patches in life. :)

11:30 AM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

Sorry for your lack of a sense of humor.


It was a JOKE.

11:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If that was supposed to be funny, you're the one who's lacking a sense of humor.

11:32 AM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

OK. You want my opinion? (Not that its worth two nickles.)

When I received the (Martha Stewart) HOME Auction book I said to myself "I hope that Lakewood made the right decision to put this out".
Now that they are canceling it, I said to myself "I hope that Lakewood made the right decision to cancel the auction".

[By the way if you've noticed, I like to talk to myself alot].

11:37 AM  
Anonymous UpsetOne said...

Your whole long comment makes only one insubstantial point, that Home was somehow hypocritical. Give me a break. The yeshiva wasn't promoting luxury, any more than Pearl Blau promotes luxury when they raffle off a new car. It's a raffle, for crying out loud, not a lifestyle guide. You people really need to relax.

See, here's the problem. A car is something everybody can use. So it's a nice car? okay, no big deal. But $7500 worth of mouldings? A $7500 front door? Come on! Is that necessary? Yes, it's a raffle, but it's a YESHIVA raffle. Would it bother you if Yeshiva raffled off Christian amulets to raise money? After all, it's not a lifestyle guide, just a raffle! (Yes, I realize the enormous difference between Chisrtian amulets and the HOME auction, no need to point it put, I'm just making a point here.)

Besides, even if it was wrong, there's nothing gained by cancelling it. It just wastes mamon hekdesh, and creates bad feelings among those who work hard on behalf of yeshiva.

Sure there is. It shows that Yeshiva is acting on the feelings of the yungerleit instead of just ignoring them like they've done in the past. This is who YESHIVA IS. Yungerleit sacrificing many things to be able to learn.

But that means nothing to a fanatic like you. To people like you, the supposedly "moral" point trumps everything else. Never mind that there's a lack of morailty too in being mevazeh the people who worked on it, the roshei yeshiva, in wasting yeshiva's money. You're so blinded by your viewpoint, that you can't see anything else.

The feeling of those who worked on it may be hurt, true. I feel bad for them. But it's the yeshiva to blame, not those who were upset by it. Yeshiva is to balme for running a campaign like they did. But I don't expect "people like you" to understand it.

11:38 AM  
Blogger outoftowner1 said...

I am a yeshiva alumnus living out of town and have recently been introduced to your blog. A suggestion: if you limit comments to those prsented in a civil tone, make all comments focus on the issue at hand not other submissions, and spellcheck submissions before posting, your blog will be a significant venue for dialogue not a kvetch-board.

11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It shows that Yeshiva is acting on the feelings of the yungerleit"

Of course, it's the "feelings" of the poor yungerleit that matter. Other people's feelings don't.

"But it's the yeshiva to blame, not those who were upset by it."

That's what the fanatics always say; it's the other guy's fault. If he would only run his life the way I think is best, none of this unpleasantness would ever have to occur. I'll bet that's what Osama said right after the twin towers were bombed. (Yes, I realize the enormous difference between Muslim fanatics and yeshivishe fanatics, no need to point it put, I'm just making a point here.)

11:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"your blog will be a significant venue for dialogue not a kvetch-board."

What's wrong with a kvetch-board? Besides, isn't "dialogue" just another word for kvetching?

11:48 AM  
Anonymous Chulent Fresser said...

ok.
anything else?

go to the mir blog, they have serious only stuff there.
Over here we can voice our opinion.

thank you.

11:52 AM  
Anonymous upsetone said...

Of course, it's the "feelings" of the poor yungerleit that matter. Other people's feelings don't.

The Yeshiva has a responsibility to the yungerleit. Afterall, they ARE yeshiva. The people running things in Yeshiva are a ways to an end. The end is the Yungerleit sitting and learning.

That's what the fanatics always say; it's the other guy's fault. If he would only run his life the way I think is best, none of this unpleasantness would ever have to occur. I'll bet that's what Osama said right after the twin towers were bombed. (Yes, I realize the enormous difference between Muslim fanatics and yeshivishe fanatics, no need to point it put, I'm just making a point here.)

That sound you just heard might have been my point whizzing over your head. Who is talking about the way other people live thir lives? Other people can do what they wish as far as I'm concerned. What bothers me is the YESHIVA who I personally am an alumnus of, doing what they did. I don't see how that means that I am worried about other people's lives.

11:53 AM  
Anonymous tkfxk said...

how do i contibute to help with the expense of the recall?

12:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

there is talk about three other org.s that are ready to take over the auction

12:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In other words, he is the product of Lakewood yeshiva, and the roshei yeshiva who consistently, although foolishly, put their weight behind people of this sort. They encourage this sort of kanous; now it has bitten them.

Thank you for explain my post, and not being "thown off" by the typo.

12:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

there is talk about three other org.s that are ready to take over the auction

What does that mean? How does an org. "take over" another org's auction? People who donated money or products to one place may not want to for another place.

12:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do you feel that you have to point out the negative points of Lakewood?
Alot of posters have questioned the daas torah. Do you ask daas torah before you post an article or comment that you know will bring out the anti-yeshiva crowd?

1:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's the fallacy of a chinese auction in the first place - no one is giving because of the organization, they're given in an effort to win a prize. There's some question whether it's even tzedaka at all if the primary motivation is to gamble/win.

1:04 PM  
Blogger Just Yidding said...

I think that both sides in this debate make some valid points about the HOME auction being OK or not. One thing I think that should have been done differently, and may have saved the Yeshiva from the barrage of Yungeleit complaining is that they should have mailed it out only to people whose lifestyles support having such items as a $12,000 living room and see through shower doors!

But to mail it out to Lakewood residents as well, was a mistake. It was just "in your face" of Yungerleit who live totally opposite of the ideals insinuated in the book.

I hope that Lakewood learns from this mistake, and in the future actually takes a moment or two( is 2 too much to ask maybe) to think of the Yungeleit that are actually what Lakewood is all about ( or used to be)

P.S. I think yu should eliminate the anonymous posting capability, as it is cowardly and confusing to know who says what on this blog.

and to those who have no sense of humor: When you lack humor, you lack sense as well!

Hatzluche Rabbah!

1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The business owners that donated the goods joined one of the most sophisticated marketing tools that the orthodox community was ever exposed to. They don’t care who is behind it. There are serious “Choshen Mishpat” issues involved.

The company which marketed this project didn’t even scratch the surface while applying the marketing plan that was planned for this project. (I know this as I’m involved in Jewish print media). They are phenomenal in marketing. In my opinion, it will be bigger the second time around.

1:14 PM  
Anonymous Fotheringay-Phipps said...

A long-time Lakewood resident told me that R' Aron once gave a whole shmuess in the BM because he was upset that he saw a new car in the parking lot of the yeshiva. Unfortunately we've come a long way since then, but that doesn't mean that the yeshiva has to promote it either.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous maaravah said...

I am not a Lakewood resident or supporter, but for whatever reason, I received the brochure. The furniture being auctioned there is clearly above my means or the means of most of my Jewish community, of which probably less than 1% are Lakewood supporters.

At first, I was surprised to see the negative response regarding the brochure, as I see hundreds of mosdos with virtually identical Chinese auctions. I don't think any of these mosdos advocate materiality, and from the ones I have involvement with, the people running these auctions also cannot afford the lavish goods that are being auctioned, and they live truly mesirus nefesh'diker lives. Nevertheless, if the $7500 drapery set will get 2,000 people to cough up $50 to the Yeshiva, why not? The yeshiva is not saying that buying $7,500 drapes is better than learning in kollel and only being able to afford $2 drapes from the local hardware store. It is simply using conventianal to techniques to raise money for itself.

However, now that I've seen the Yeshiva retract the auction, I must say I am truly impressed. Although I cannot say that I fully agree with the decision, it is nice to see the Yeshiva sending out a message that materiality is truly disgusting to it. The message is so foreign to your average Jewish community working class, myself included, even those of us that are erlich, have k'vius ittim, and give tzedakah. I think that the retraction had an excellent message to the rabim, even if it was essentially a wrong decision.

1:43 PM  
Blogger Harry Maryles said...

My dear Reb upset one: I quite understand where you are coming from. My son is an Avreich in Yeshivas Mir for the last 12 years (although this year he was made a salaried Shoel uMeshiv in Mir’s newest Beis HaMedrash catering to American students). He too lives an austere lifestyle. It is true that the values of an Avreich are not reflected in the kind of Gashmius being "sold" in that brochure. But the fact is that it exists. And the fact further is that it exists in the Frum, indeed the Charedi community. If someone has the money and wants to live the good life why shouldn't he be able to do so? Why is that your concern? It costs exorbitant sums of money? So what is that to you? It is not your business or mine. You want to live a frugal lifestyle? Go ahead. Be my guest, but not at the expense of others who could have benefited from the funds raised by such an auction.

That's right. You are denying a legitimate fundraiser for your Yeshiva that would provide revenue to those who need it just to provide the basic needs for that very Spartan existence you so extol. ...All so that your sense of propriety is maintained. Well, life is not that black and white. Sometimes we need to look the other way when a greater good is served, as long as it does not violate Halacha. This is probably what motivated your Roshei Yeshiva to go along with the idea.

The one thing I do agree with you about is that it should not have been sent to Avreichim. That is the fault of those who were responsible for the mass mailing. It should have gone to Baalei Battim, not Avreichim.

But to castigate someone for spending money on an expensive home decor item is unfair. It costs... what it costs. If one has the money, allow him the luxury of owning it.

Wealth is in the hands of God. It is He who determines who will be rich and who will not be. But great wealth is a legitimate state in Judaism and has been achieved by members of the Torah world through-out the ages. It is not the concern of Avreichim who is wealthy, why they are wealthy or how they spend their money. The concern of an Avreich should be his Limud HaTorah, his Midos, and the Chinuch he gives his children, not whether there is opulence in the world. Maybe God has placed opulence in the world for a reason. Maybe it's there to be able to entice people into Chinese auctions for the purpose of raising funds outside the Charedi community. It should not concern the Avreichim in any case.

1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The end is the Yungerleit sitting and learning."

That's right, sitting and learning, not raising a fuss about how the money is raised. It was complaining for complaining's sake.

"That sound you just heard might have been my point whizzing over your head."

You're probably right. After all, it was a really brilliant point, wasn't it?

"they should have mailed it out only to people whose lifestyles support having such items as a $12,000 living room and see through shower doors!"

They did not mail it to the yungerleit. The yungerleit complained anyway. (At least some them did; the ones who are evidently not so "areingetun" in learning and have time for such narishkeit.)

1:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The one thing I do agree with you about is that it should not have been sent to Avreichim."

Again, it was not sent to Avreichim.

1:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"and to those who have no sense of humor: When you lack humor, you lack sense as well"

And when you lack cents, you lack dollars as well. And when you lack dollars, and you are a mosad, you run a chinese auction, right?

2:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A long-time Lakewood resident told me that R' Aron once gave a whole shmuess in the BM because he was upset that he saw a new car in the parking lot of the yeshiva.

I belive it was R'Shneur z'tl who made that comment.

2:06 PM  
Blogger LkwdYingle said...

Bottom line ,this offended a lot of people .I am told the Yated received over a hundred letters .(We can safely assume that thousands were bothered but did not write .)People have a right to voice their opinions. The yeshiva realized that people were offended and pulled it .It was not because of pressure , it was the right thing to do.

2:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

its 'capitol' with the public decreased.

Was Capitol intensionaly spelled with an O instead of an A, hinting to the Capitol Hotel?

2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A long-time Lakewood resident told me that R' Aron once gave a whole shmuess in the BM because he was upset that he saw a new car in the parking lot of the yeshiva.

That is why the yshivas is in lakewood, not Lawrence.

(it was a pre-owned car, not new)

2:25 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

"its 'capitol' with the public decreased.

Was Capitol intensionaly spelled with an O instead of an A, hinting to the Capitol Hotel?"

No.
I was educayted in Yeshivas.
Thaynks for currectin.

2:29 PM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

Its gettin hot in here.......

2:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course the yeshiva wants this kind of lifestyle, where else would the money come from?

2:40 PM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

Thats a pretty dumb comment. Having such a lifestyle doesnt make you wealthy or a baal tzedakah.

Nuch ah Deah Zuger......

2:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Of course the yeshiva wants this kind of lifestyle, where else would the money come from? "

"Thats a pretty dumb comment. Having such a lifestyle doesnt make you wealthy or a baal tzedakah."

The yeshiva wants people to want fancy houses and need money then to earn it in excess. Then they come after them telling them the big mitzva they have to spent it right.

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Thats a pretty dumb comment. Having such a lifestyle doesnt make you wealthy or a baal tzedakah."

But wanting such a lifestyle makes you need money, and when you have it AK & co. want you.

3:22 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

>anon poster: There's some question whether it's even tzedaka at all if the primary motivation is to gamble/win.

I can't tell you the halacha, but I do know that the IRS does not consider the ticket price or entry fee for a raffle or Chinese auction, to be tax deductible* because they consider the benefit of the entry to be the amount paid for the ticket.

In other words, you are paying to receive a service and the service you are getting is the opportunity to gamble. So, just as the IRS does not let one take an itemized deduction for the amounts they spend to play Bingo at their local Conservative shul, they do not let one deduct the amounts that they spend gabling to benefit their local Yeshiva.

(Of course, most organizations and most people still view their contribution as a donation and are unaware of such nuances in the tax code).

3:57 PM  
Blogger Just Yidding said...

I know of a few Avreichim that did indeed receive the book.

4:43 PM  
Anonymous Gabbai Tzedaka said...

If people really viewed a chinese auction entry as a donation, chinese auctions would be no more/less successful than a direct appeal. It's the chance of winning that prompts people to give more, not a fair evaluation of the organization.

4:48 PM  
Anonymous Yossi Bren said...

I'm in kollel 13years with very little money, nothing close to enough to build a semi decent kitchen. (My kitchen was built 35 years ago and is falling apart.)

I will never have the money to redo my kitchen, and it is my choice. But what would be wrong if my wife put a ticket for a $25,000? (Anybody who did a kitchen know this is average.) Is there something wrong with me winning a kitchen?

Those of you who live in lakewood can come visit my house for you to be sure.

5:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's wrong with it? What's the ikkar and what's the tofel? Is this a $25 donation that you'd anyway be giving? Then why extort a raffle ticket for your donation - just give it. If everyone did likewise, fundraising expenses would be reduced dramatically. If it's not a donation that you'd give anyway, on the other hand, perhaps that $25 could be better spent than your wife's gambling habit...

6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I know of a few Avreichim that did indeed receive the book"

Big deal. The vast majority did not.

"Is there something wrong with me winning a kitchen?"

Only acc. to the holier-than-thou guys (like Avrech), who think that anyone who appreciates nice things can't possibly be a real kollel yungerman.

6:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Who is talking about the way other people live thir lives? Other people can do what they wish as far as I'm concerned. What bothers me is the YESHIVA who I personally am an alumnus of, doing what they did. I don't see how that means that I am worried about other people's lives."

Opinion in the YESHIVA is not monolithic. The yeshiva is full of people of diverse opinions. Some hold that HOME was the best thing since sliced bread; others hold it is worse than the internet; some don't care; some think it's wrong but shouldn't have been cancelled. Among those who felt it was okay are the roshei yeshiva, who I'm sure you'll grant are an important part of the yeshiva.

You, however, arrogantly proclaim that your vision is the only possible correct one, and with your tumuling and complaining, you imposed it on everyone else. That's called running other people's lives, and it's typically fanatical behavior. Okay, Osama?

A related point: I've got news for all the kanoim-in-training out there: If something bugs you, it's okay to just keep your mouth shut. Believe it or not, that is within the range of acceptable responses. Not everything that annoys you requires you to lash out. This is a world, and a yeshiva, with more than one opinion in it; a little tolerance is very much in order, but sadly, very much out of style, especially among the holier-than-thou crowd.

6:24 PM  
Anonymous upsetone said...

Opinion in the YESHIVA is not monolithic. The yeshiva is full of people of diverse opinions. Some hold that HOME was the best thing since sliced bread; others hold it is worse than the internet; some don't care; some think it's wrong but shouldn't have been cancelled. Among those who felt it was okay are the roshei yeshiva, who I'm sure you'll grant are an important part of the yeshiva.

If you learned in Lakewood you'd know that the R.Y.'s actually have very little say in what goes on when it comes to the financial aspects of BMG. Yes, there are people who don't agree with my POV and I respect that. But I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

You, however, arrogantly proclaim that your vision is the only possible correct one,

I don't...

and with your tumuling and complaining, you imposed it on everyone else.

I did not impose anything on anyone. I expressed my opinion. I understand why that can cause difficulties with people who are intolerant of the opinions of others.

That's called running other people's lives, and it's typically fanatical behavior. Okay, Osama?

Ahh, we resort to personal attacks to make a point. What is this, 4th grade? No, it's not called running other people's lives. It's called expressing an opinion.

A related point: I've got news for all the kanoim-in-training out there: If something bugs you, it's okay to just keep your mouth shut. Believe it or not, that is within the range of acceptable responses. Not everything that annoys you requires you to lash out. This is a world, and a yeshiva, with more than one opinion in it; a little tolerance is very much in order, but sadly, very much out of style, especially among the holier-than-thou crowd.

Again, I'm entitled to my POV too. You wouldn't be trying to supress my opinion by asking me to keep my mouth shut, would you? That really ironic.

6:37 PM  
Anonymous upsetone said...

Harry Maryles:

I agree with most of what you wrote, and I appreciate having a civil conversation - a rarity for this place. I don't mind people living any halachically acceptable lifestyle they choose. I disagree on this point: Yeshiva should not be promoting a lifestyle contrary to what those who are moser nefesh to learn in the yeshiva. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who they are sending it to, it's the fact that they are sending it to begin with. I guess we'll disagree.

6:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Again, I'm entitled to my POV too. You wouldn't be trying to supress my opinion by asking me to keep my mouth shut, would you? That really ironic."

If only the kanoim would content themselves with expressing their opinion, I'd be happy. But no, they have to make sure that whatever they think gets turned into a takanah, be it against the internet or against HOME. Express your opinion all you want, but don't impose it on everyone else.

6:46 PM  
Anonymous upsetone said...

If only the kanoim would content themselves with expressing their opinion, I'd be happy. But no, they have to make sure that whatever they think gets turned into a takanah, be it against the internet or against HOME. Express your opinion all you want, but don't impose it on everyone else.

Personally, I think the internet takanna was a real tragedy. But that's another discussion. I didn't make sure any takanna or such happened, and I didn't impose my views on anyone. I contacted someone in the Yeshiva and expressed what I thought. That's all I did, yet I get attacked for imposing my views on others.

6:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why call the yeshiva? Do you call your congressman every time something happens in Washington you don't like? Do you call Lichtenstein every time the township misbehaves? The point of calling the yeshiva is to pressure them to change something, which is what you did and are so very proud of. Next time you're bothered by something, here are some alternatives that will help you let off steam and won't harm anyone: Tell your wife how upset you are. Tell your chavrusa. Tell your mailman. Tell all of us here on this blog. Smile and say, what a crazy world it is when the yeshiva sends out a brochure like this.

I'm not saying don't complain; I'm not saying don't express an opinion; I'm saying leave the status quo as is. There's no mitzvah to change the world in your image. I understand the impulse, but it has to be resisted. I conflate this with the internet takanah, b/c it's the same dynamic at work. People who think that their opinion has got to be the right one, and will go out of their way to impose it on others.

7:01 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Shkoach to all you kanoim for causing Lakewood yet another blight. If you had just let it go no one would've taken notice, but now your protest has put the issue in the spotlight for all to see. IT WAS JUST A FUNDRAISER!!! No one told you should live in an ostentatious home. You're free to live in whatever fashion you so choose. This was merely an attempt by Lakewood to raise money, not an endorsement of living a certain way. Why don't you all get off your high horses and mind your own business, instead of looking for, something else to complain about? I guess I can't really blame Lakewood people, though.Your hanhala and town have left you a rich legacy of trying to point out the "negative" things and have them banned, so why should you be any different?

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a hard time believing that the average person in lakewood really suffers for not having $7500 front doors or moldings. FTM, I have a hard time believing that there are many people anywhere who simmer with resentment that they lack $7500 doors. That they lack a new kitchen, a good dining room, a new computer, a diamond necklace...sure.
Who buys the ticket for the $7500 crown moldings? Either someone who is thinking of buying this anyway or someone who is just looking to buy a ticket and didn't check which raffle he was buying.
Front doors and moldings are just goods and services that some providers can donate. No one is led to a life of luxury by the raffle selling these things.
Far more insiduous for promoting the impression that luxuries are the norm and for fostering kinah are raffles selling things that the average fellow really hopes to win.

8:37 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

To anonymous above: How do your expect the leadership or the "Gedolim" to know what we think if we don't tell them.

I have a lot of opinions that I would like to express to more than my husband and my neighbors. Maybe I will do just that.

And, while I don't know whether it was a good move or a bad move in the long term to cancel the auctions (I never received a brochure, I guess there is one mailing list I am not on), I think that some of these slick brochures just end up pointing out to people all the material things that they lack and end up creating tremendous desire. Considering the financial problems that so many people in our community have, whether they are kollel families or whether they are high income and full tuition paying families, I think it is a huge diservice to create brochures that make some people feel unhappy about their lot.

10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this conversation has exhausted itself. It seems like we are down to name calling and back stabbing. Enough is enough!

10:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"How do your expect the leadership or the "Gedolim" to know what we think if we don't tell them."

In this society, it's the leadership that tells the people what to think, not vice versa. Of course, this is a policy that is honored when it's convenient. But when the roshei yeshiva send out a brochure that the kanoim dislike, all of a sudden daas Torah goes out the window.

"I have a lot of opinions that I would like to express to more than my husband and my neighbors."

Go right ahead. So long as you don't impose your views on others.

11:31 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

The Roshei Yeshiva could have easily told the so called kanoim that they disagreed with their sentiments rather than cancelling the auction.

Apparently, the Roshei Yeshiva agreed with the so called kanoim. That is the marketplace of free ideas, you express them and some of them take hold (even with those who have "da'as Torah").

And, sometimes, even "da'as Torah" needs to get in touch with the joy and even pressures and frustrations of the klal so they can give relevant psak.

6:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Roshei Yeshiva could have easily told the so called kanoim that they disagreed with their sentiments rather than cancelling the auction."

You obviously don't know how things work around here.

1:58 AM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

Anon. So, basically you are saying that the Roshei Yeshiva don't have a mind of their own and the strengh of character to do the right thing???? I REALLY hope that I am mis-reading you.

9:48 AM  

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