Monday, December 19, 2005

Lakewood comment forum

posted by Yeshiva Orthodoxy
at 3:54 PM

109 Comments:

Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

Kindly express yourself with civility, decency and a bissel yiras shmayim.

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so how much $$$ was raised last night???

2:15 PM  
Anonymous frum hocker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frum Hocker,
This blogger is obviously inspired by AK or possibly even related to AK. Heck-it might even be AK!!!!

Face it-dee gantza oilam vaist az AK is a gurnisht!

7:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe YH the right hand man of AK. My-shiduch.blogspot

8:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would R' Aaron, ztz"l agree with that statement? With your right to make it? In this forum?

BMG flourishes despite the likes of you.

9:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

R' Aaron ztvk"l is rolling over in his grave because of the likes you, AK and his henchmen. How dare they treat the yeshiva as a unvirsity with no respect for torah, it is sickening how corupt they all are. It has become kanoyis for the sake of power, and money for the sake of money.

Most people would want an alternate yeshiva kehila, they hate the hanhala the fakery. They come because the oilem makes it a makom torah not some LL yoresh who has no respect for torah, daas torah, emes or anything that gets in the way of his personal agenda. He is bringing down the yeshiva.

10:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why arent the bnei torah ignored?
The biggest talmidei chachamim are not the ones asked about daas torah, baruch hashem at least they aren't bothered they don't want to be bothered. But where is our daas torah coming from? Any talmid chacham who opens his mouth is ignored and mevuzah.

11:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dinim is one of the sheva mitzvos bnei noch. So why won't any the chashuvie lakewood ever go to a din torah? I challenge anyone to show lehalacha the heter to ignore hazmonos, the like of which go on by us in lakewood.

11:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problems with the vaad, only started with the new generation vaad members, who are not as osaik betzorchai tzibur beemunah, as the older members are. I'll leave the names for someone else to post.

11:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We need a new vaad, a new yeshiva, new batei dinim. All here in lakewood.

11:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Comments in this blog are ok, but comments in "Lakewood comment forum" are too open for vileness. This post should be closed.
(And I do mostly agree with the comments, but not here)

11:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't wait until the vaad busts everyone of who that have an internet connection.

11:14 PM  
Anonymous Talibaner said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:16 PM  
Anonymous Kesser Torah said...

Word is that the Council of Lakewood Jewry will have a pashkevil out tommorow (ששון( also expecting to others about the Kesser Torah Devils.

11:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Comments are good, and aggresive monitoring will keep the bad and "over the line" ones from being posted.

11:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How many emails is ak going to get tonight?

11:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Would R' Aaron, ztz"l agree with that statement? With your right to make it? In this forum?

BMG flourishes despite the likes of you. "

p.s. I sit right next to you first seder (when you come)

11:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Really? So, are you my chavrusa or the rosh chabura?

1:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lakewood rocks. Thats it. I've got nothing more to say. Nothing. Nada. Zippo. OUT!

5:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Go to a Din Torah in Lakewood-What a Joke! 1 so called Bais-Din (rhymes with dinkel) is as corupt as it comes & then some. See Shabbos 139 & Rashi (with the family covering for the outlandish coruption of .......and they have the chutzpah to call themselves a Bais-Din-and the narisher "oilam" still goes to them.

8:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The comment with AK's email has been removed.

8:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please post AKs email address again, you will keep him busy all day taking it down so that you could keep him out of other trouble. He probably didn't finish davening yet, so he could get a few more emails.

9:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know what this AK is all about.
One the I do know that an "AK-47" is poerfull until it runs out of ammunition-don't let him reload.

The old VAAD Members were just as corrupt- but all claim they are only following the orders of 617.

At the '49 trials those excuses didn't hold water.

Where is our "tuvai ha'iir"? let's start the election process.

AKI-47 & 617 etc don't want a "tuvai" al pi Halacha 'cause only the "porei maas" (taxpayers) can vote, oi vei.

9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AK was asked by the debates if he pays property tax, and said he does. The public records show otherwise. He can't even admit he consideres himself a talmid chahum, that is patur from meches.

10:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The older vaad members are corupt, but the new ones make them look like saints.

10:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone list all the vaad members, and the official noch shlepers.

10:17 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

all those in favor of starting/joining a new vaad- please email me at imupstate@gmail.com
i will keep this info in the highest level of confidence and alert all responses to the first meeting.
WE NEED TO END THE MADNESS NOW!!!!

10:18 AM  
Anonymous lakewoodie said...

I just emailed my info and i hope everybody else does too.
Its enough kvetching and time to act!!

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Find a new yeshiva for your boys, school for your daughters, shul to daven in, places to shop, a yeshiva to learn in, friends for your wife....
You are going to be in cherem. The monster does a very good job of protecting itself.

10:36 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

Thats the problem-People like you spread vaad propoganda and terorize all the people.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH STARTING A NEW VAAD. WE WILL DEFFINITLY HAVE A BOARD OF RABANIM OVERLOOKING ALL ISSUES AS WELL.

ANON 10:36 MUST BE AK OR ANOTHER VAAD MEMBER SCARED WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE SUCCEED!!!!

BTW-I ALREADY HAVE 7 EMAILS!!!

10:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not a vaad member, or anthing like that, I wish you plenty of luck. I'm just expressing why the over 75% of the oilem that agree with you won't have any guts to go near that idea. Look how many live have been ruined in lakewood over a cherem (or like a cherem, or even the threat) the list is endless. Yes you may take someone to bais din over a cherem, they can't just be issued witout warrent, but if no bais din will take the case, who is going to stop the leshaim shamayim monster.

10:47 AM  
Anonymous emunah said...

can the vaad's action
or anyones action effect ,
what was
decided on rosh hashannaa?
or is this part of hishtadlus?
beis halevi vayeshev

10:51 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

firstly I apologize for wrongfully accusing you of being associated with the vaad.
Secondly-If everybody is just going to sit and be scared to come forward this scam will continue...
I am scared to think of what they will be doing next!!

AIS LAASOIS!!!!
BTW-IM UP TO 11 EMAILS!!!!

10:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I too agree, I just don't have the guts to risk my family. (I don't have any yechus to stick up for me by the backroom meetings) However, do what you can to spread the word there are thousands like.

11:02 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

Like i said previously- This will be done with rabonim consulting in every decision. This is not going to be some group of low lifes trying to take over the city but a bunch of chashuvai irainu balabatim as well as kollel/rabeim on this vaad. This will be a vaad the gantza oilim will respect.

You dont need guts to respond-the only people that will not like this are obviously the old vaad members. The entire khila is in dire need of this new vaad, and will honor it.

11:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All you need is 7,000 members, who can vote, and down they all go. 3,500 and their wifes. Look how close the last election was, around 1,000 votes. Most be people who voted incumbent stated "I don't know thats who the vaad said to vote for."
Well, lets make them know!

11:09 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

well the next elections are how far away??? Can we wait for that and hope to educate the khila by then??

or is it smarter to have a new vaad set up by then and have the khila vote as decided by the vaad and its rabonim???

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Only one question, Where are you going to get the money?
Because after money there is nothing left to do, but action!

11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Spead the word to other sites.

11:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But who going to convince the kehila to listen to the new vaad, the biggest names, aren't going to jump on in first moment. Chain phone calls for an open forum meeting after chanuka. (rav forchimer will set the rules for the chain calls)

11:17 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

Besides the cost of advertising (which im sure the lakewood shopper will love to give to us at 1/2 price)what should the major expenses be?
I do have resources i can rely on for this chosheva zach.

11:18 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

With several chosheva rabonim on board its a no brainer!!!!

11:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It just won't be easy getting rabbonim even if they agree with you, you need a very big name to come out in public. Mailings can get very expensive.
And better a name like R' Eliyahu Levin who is not political, and his greatness cannot be disputed.

11:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does any one know if the dinner was more sucsesful than a traditional dinner?

11:27 AM  
Anonymous NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...

Yes R'E Levine would be great to have on board-good call.
I have people going into several chosheva & powerful rabonim over the next few days-(one is not from lakewood but has a kolel here)

BTW- i have 18 emails already!!!

11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about having no vaad at all? That's right, no vaad. Let everyone vote just as he pleases, just like in a real democracy. You people are so brainwashed that you think a vaad is a necessary function of society. Meanwhile, we're the only losers to have one.

1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The VAAD told us to vote for the additional 3.5 million School budget, 'cause chai was going to get some 2-300 thou, isn't that being iresponsible to the tzibur?

Shei is a nice Orginazation, but c'mmon give me a brake- We should pay a yearly 3.5 million for a one time shot of 2-300 thou? no business minded would think like that.

1:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh! we can sell Reb Yosel down the drain & Halberg also as long as we "get allong with the police".

Why do we have to get allong with the police? so Shenky can arange for the police presence at R"L Funerals.

That position & reasoning is "osur".

1:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When is rabbi miller from toronto becoming rav roshei of lakewood?

1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH STARTING A NEW VAAD. WE WILL DEFFINITLY HAVE A BOARD OF RABANIM OVERLOOKING ALL ISSUES AS WELL.

yeah but the rabbonim are the ones who really can't handle pressure

1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This has been tried before, but maybe now the time is right.

1:48 PM  
Anonymous boker tov said...

I have put a lot of thought in to the solution to the worlds problems. if lakewood is the goal (end) of every succesful yeshiva guy's life, how can we make it better?

WE CANT

Their is only one way and it doesn't start in lakewood. it starts at the mesivtas and the pre erets yisroel yeshivas. they have to look at lakewood, see what the result of their product is, and strongly urge all their students not to attend lakewood. we need all of these pre-bmg yeshivos to band together and make a lakewood ban.
(also they can't just urge their students to stay in the parent yeshiva that will never work, but they have to work together to create alternatives to the bmg monstrosity)

1:50 PM  
Anonymous boker tov said...

we can probably get rav shmuel berenbaum on board

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NEW VAAD FORMING!!! said...
Besides the cost of advertising (which im sure the lakewood shopper will love to give to us at 1/2 price)what should the major expenses be?

ads@lakewoodshopper.com

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Fotheringay-Phipps said...

You guys are delusional.

The vast majority of the town supports the Vaad, and will continue to support it as long as it has the backing of the roshei yeshiva. The vast majority of those who don't support the Vaad won't support an alternative Vaad whose sentiments are such as have been expressed in this thread. The small minority remaining will find fault in whoever it is that runs the alternative Vaad.

BTW, the choice of RE Levin is a prime example of the type of problems you will face. RE Levin is a well known slumlord and supporter of slumlords, which is besides for his being an illuy (which is a problem in its own right). There is no way he will get support from a significant percentage of the population.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous boker tov said...

they switch tractates every 6 months? is it beause they learn so fast? what time does seder start? no really! what time does it end? what time is mincha in the dorm? questions questions
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

2:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...but they have to work together to create alternatives to the bmg monstrosity..."

Let me guess, Boker Tov - you went to Mir. What a tired, tired song that is...

2:13 PM  
Anonymous boker tov said...

hah the mir is worse but noone goes there anymore, the best guys their came from bais.

why do you think bmg is a good place?????????????????????????????????????????????

2:16 PM  
Anonymous boker tov said...

ok i take that back the mir isn't as bad as bmg, they have rabbeim.

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the real reason the mir was not allowed to open a yeshiva here?

2:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SUPPOSEDLY S. GLICK WHO WAS A BIG SPONSOR OF THE PLAN WAS TOLD BY HIS REBBE R' ELYA TO BACK OFF----NOW YOU CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHO R' ELYA WAS TALKING FOR----BMG!!!!
EXPOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!

3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But why R' Elya and/or BMG allow more torah?

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

R' Elya vs Anonymous Blog Commenter vs : that's a bit of a machlokes acharon/tachton, isn't it?!

3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I WAS TOLD BY SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE.
OBVIOUSLY BMG DOESNT WANT COMPETITION.

3:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Competition? Mah shiaches shemitta eitzal har Sinai?

3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

is duh shaichis???? you are obviously out of the loop......
Dont you think bmg would feel threatened they would lose their status as the largest yeshiva in usa?? they have tons to lose if mir would have succeeded.

3:29 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

Yeshiva which at first balked, eventualy agreed to let Mir in.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:08 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

Please don't say any loshon hora/motzei shem ra, about any person or place.
I agree their attitude towards the Mir was inexcusable.
Yeshiva operates, sadly, too much like a business, hence wants as much control as possible.

5:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The vast majority of the town supports the Vaad,"

The majority - yes; the vast majority - no; not any more. And there's lots of doubt even in the majority, going by what went on in yeshiva at the last election.

5:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Please don't say any loshon hora/motzei shem ra, about any person or place."

I guess that only counts if the target is the Mir or similar. If it's the Rishei Yeshiva, Aaron Kotler or other members of the vaad, their families, etc., the comements seem to be allowed (since they are allowed to remain).

5:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People will say we gave money to lakewood for 25 years now we are giving to the mir, all the funds will dry out. Babies. Kinas sofrim marbeh chochma...

5:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But why won't BMG allow another yeshiva town and more torah? All they talk about is torah torah torah? A bunch of fakers. Torah NO, my torah yes, your torah worthless.

5:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AK et al in the name of 617 says and proclaims the following:
We the VAAD representing the sole interests of 617 & their benefactors have every right "zchus" to "use" the Tzibur's vote for their own gain & no one has the right to challenge or question that right.

We further proclaim the VAAD & the appointees to the various Township boards have an obligation and owe their sole alegiance to the directives of 617 & their representatives.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

"I guess that only counts if the target is the Mir or similar. If it's the Rishei Yeshiva, Aaron Kotler or other members of the vaad, their families, etc., the comements seem to be allowed"
I'm sorry you feel that way.I try as best I can to delete all personal attacks.
"If it's the Rishei Yeshiva, Aaron Kotler.."
I have deleted an infinite amount of uncivil or slanderous comments about them.

5:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BMG is a business and run like one.
Aaron Kotler receives as CEO some 300,000.00 ++ anually, plus the house, vehicle, expense account credit card, vacations, skiing etc. As CEO is he's worth at least that much especially if he has to listen & read all of this.

5:48 PM  
Anonymous Lakewood Yid said...

I have no problem with AK getting paid well. He has to raise aklot of money. I also have no problem with the Rosh yeshiva getting paid well. By getting paid well i mean six figures-they all work very very hard.
That said, I do have a problem with putting all your childrens houses under yeshiva. That should not be included in ones salary since its not honest. Additionally, it causes AK and the rest of the powers in yeshiva and their children, not to have the same concerns as us and they therefore could not care how much their decisions impact our taxes

6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

having a vaad was R"E Levine's idea. I was there when he suggested it to R' Malkiel in wake of the Schenky dabacle quite a few year's ago. This is probably not what he had in mind, MISTOMA.

6:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with the last post. They should all get paid well but why cheat on property taxes. Even if the Rosh Yeshiva's houses deserve to be put under BMG's name (since they are the "rabbis" of the tax exempr entity"), but their children???? Where does it end??

6:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RE: Comments/Loshon Hora

Try enabling "Comment Moderation" from the blogger dashboard. It will then prompt you to approve each comment _before_ it appears on the site. It's certainly the way to go if youre concerned about loshon hora.

6:11 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

I probably will in the near future.Thanks for the advice.

6:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The less houses there are paying taxes the more taxes each house pays, even 100+ houses on the yeshivas name is tiny, anyone paying $10,000 a year in taxes, will even take a reduction of any sort.
Besides that they don't understand the tax burden.

7:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm sorry you feel that way.I try as best I can to delete all personal attacks."

And akotlers email address.

7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

100+ houses?? Please. Be realistic. And don't assume that by placing a home in an institution's name avoids taxes altogether -- property taxes, sure, but the house then become income and is subject to federal and state income tax.

7:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

+1000 houses
"placing a home in an institution's name avoids taxes altogether -- property taxes, sure, but the house then become income and is subject to federal and state income tax."
a)Then what is the rush to put a house under an institution
b) local taxes are the main tax burden on the community, that is only collected thru property tax

7:59 PM  
Anonymous Respectful Cynic said...

Lakewood Yid said...
That said, I do have a problem with putting all your childrens houses under yeshiva. That should not be included in ones salary since its not honest. Additionally, it causes AK and the rest of the powers in yeshiva and their children, not to have the same concerns as us and they therefore could not care how much their decisions impact our taxes


By the way From personal experience you dont gain from your house under an institution. The reason is that IT IS NOT YOUR HOUSE!!!
you have no equity from the purchace!

8:09 PM  
Anonymous Bitmiya said...

why is everything here about money? Why has no one here acknowledged that bmg is currently the biggest obstacle to torah learning in klal yisroel? Why hasn't the anonymous commenter that accused boker tov (my old name) of learning in the mir explained to us why bmg is a good place?

why is it that america can't produce rebeim for people 22 and older? why is it that the one kotler relative that had any claim to talmidim in bmg was allowed to leave? why do i think anonymous is going to accuse me of being a stupid gr talmid and a stupid mir guy?

How can anyone defend the bmg monstrosity?????????????????????????????????????????

8:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://tritown.gmnews.com/News/2003/1218/Front_Page/035.html

8:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When there is one yeshiva and all the shtellers are family what do you want. there are plenty of eligable people, but no where to teach

12:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I probably will in the near future."

Don't. You'll get about a quarter of the comments, and will lose lots of those that really get the discussion moving.

1:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good post from the Tri-town News. I love the way Yudel Shain is stirring things up. He should turn his attention to township contracts and purchasing, which are typical places to find graft. Can't wait to see what will come scurrying out when that rock gets turned over.

1:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone list all the people/places that have banned or ignored, because of politics more the issue?

10:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kids houses in tax exempt BMG Name?
Which BMG? There are about 5 different ones listed?
Do the kids live there, or rent it out? Do they have a rental besides their living quarters?

The kids are are making income & we are paying their taxes????

Someone said that there are 100 hoses or something like it. Average tax $8-12,000.00 per house which equals some $800,000.00-$1,200,000 of cold hard earned dollars that we are paying?
Is something wrong here?

2:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's wrong is the assumption that it's illegal when, in fact, it's a perfectly legal practice.

2:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I called my accountant and he checked on it, he said it's not legal in the State of New Jersey.

3:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What's wrong is the assumption that it's illegal when, in fact, it's a perfectly legal practice."

You are missing the boat. The issue is not whether or not it is legal. The issue is that people who don't pay prop taxes are making decisions that affect those who do. Naturally, they are unlikely to take prop taxes into account in their decisions.

3:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By that logic (people who don't pay shouldn't have a say), perhaps suffrage (go look it up) should be denied to renters...

8:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"By that logic (people who don't pay shouldn't have a say), perhaps suffrage (go look it up) should be denied to renters..."

Renters pay prop. taxes through higher rents.

9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BMG's Apartment house don't pay taxes, and their laughing themselves to the bank "on your cheshbin".

10:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Renters pay prop. taxes through higher rents."

Not in Lakewood, they don't. The rental market is so upside down in this town because of basement rentals and out of town investors, etc., that you typically can't cover the mortgage on a rental. If tere's a tax increase, it won't be passed on to renters - the market simply won't bear it. If it weren't for escalating values, purchasing rental property in this town would be a losing proposition.

10:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The rental market is so upside down in this town because of basement rentals and out of town investors, etc."

That's a recent development. There happens to be a surplus now, but the worm will turn eventually.

3:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And untile then, suffrage should be denied all but the dignified gentry?

9:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course not. I'm on your side, you idiot. I'm explaining why renters are really paying taxes like anyone else. And that's true even if rentals are low, b/c the only reason these houses were built and purchased was b/c of the rental market, which means that the taxes from these houses come entirely from renters.

10:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the only reason these houses were built and purchased was b/c of the rental market"

Bwah? These houses were built and purchsed for those who live on top. Because they couldn't afford it, they put someone in the bottom. There is no rental market in Lakewood to speak of. With rare exception, you cannot build rental property in this city and hope to make on the rentals - it just doesn't happen. You make of the appreciation of the property, but not the rentals.

And, no, you're not on "my side". One needn't pay property tax in order to "have a say" -- the system doesn't work like that.

11:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yOU COULD ALWAYS put a houseboat in lake carasaljo to live in (but make sure there is a basement to rent out).

7:55 PM  

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