Tuesday, December 06, 2005

Skipping learning in Israel

A yungerman from Lakewood who has produced an analysis showing how the discrepancy in age of boys to girls getting married is the root of the shidduch "crisis", with the backing af some askanim has been going around to gedolim trying to convince them to have boys get married younger.

How can this be done? By making the boys skip their learning in Israel.

The intrepid boys at Mirrer Yeshiva News and some others, have informed me of a meeting this individual just had with Harav Shmuel Berenbaum shlita, who is known to dislike bochrim going to Israel.

My first question is: Have they thought about the severe negative ramifications of such a result? Such as boys, in the best years of their life, missing out on- Netanya, Eliat, restaurants, traveling "north', traveling "south" etc.

Seriously:

Are we convinced ther is a unique "crisis"; and it can be fixed?

The Israeli experience is distinct for what it does to youngsters' maturity and self reliance.

And yes, many boys do get a lot of hasmodah and learning done there.

Also there is no other place that makes you more in touch and more at ease with your yiddishkeit. The strong vibes of kedusha is palpable.

Perhaps too, the later you get married the more prepared you are for it.

Before rabbonim discourage Israel and encourage earlier marriage they must be sure of all the ramifications. Extra sure.
posted by Yeshiva Orthodoxy
at 3:22 PM

11 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Learning in EY is what destroyed the American yeshivos and left us with nothing but one humongous pseudo-yeshiva. It is also responsible, in my opinion, for the upturn in kanous among formerly-normal American yeshivaleit. They spend years in EY and absorb a lot of the extreme views there, at an age where they are too young to realize that most of it should taken with a large dose of salt.

2:59 PM  
Blogger Yeshiva Orthodoxy said...

upturn in kanous among formerly-normal American yeshivaleit... at an age where they are too young to realize that most of it should taken with a large dose of salt
In today's world: If you don't lean rightward you'll fall off the cliff.
Perhaps we are leaning too much.
Sadly only time will let us know.

3:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are the Rabbis just bored?

3:14 PM  
Blogger Y.W. Editor said...

Reb Shmuel Berenbaum Slita isnt bored, perhaps the Novaminsker and the Agudah are.

My question is what in the world does this yungerman from Lakewood want exactly?

HE must be the bord one.

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In today's world: If you don't lean rightward you'll fall off the cliff."

It's the other way around: Things are so tilted right, that if you don't lean slightly left, you can't stay in the center.

6:14 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

Being that I have not personally experienced a year in Israel, I cannot speak to that subject. But, what I can speak about with much confidence is marriage and the emotional maturity is required.

And, it is quite simple. Marrying off the men, who cannot support a wife and a family at 21, 22, 23, 24, or even 25, at 18, 19, or 20, will just prove to be a diaster emotionally and financially.

I personally would like to see the Orthodox world turn back the clock and determine if a young man is ready to marry based on the ability to support a family, not on the fact that he has managed to reach a birthday, whether that be an 18th birthday or a 24th birthday.

7:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are some economic angles that should be considered here. Who will pay for this ?

Also, I think the popularity of Americans going to EY is somewhat driven by the cheaper cost of living there (at least for some people/situations).

I now see that SL just commented similar to what I wrote (I didn't see it when I started writing my comment). That is like what I believe the Rambam says, based on the gemara, that yivneh bayis, yita kerem, viachar kach yisa isha.

7:53 PM  
Anonymous SephardiLady said...

I would LOVE to see this analysis published and analyized by a statistician. Somehow, while I sure that this yungerman is a very bright fellow, I have to wonder if he has the background in statistics, sampling, and analysis to qualify him to draw a conclusion based on evidence.

I know that many people would buy into this "solution" in full based on many conversations that I have heard as well as the support that I have seen in certain Jewish Publications where the public has already advocated for such a "solution." But, I think a exhaustive analysis is needed, and I highly doubt this yungerman's analysis is that.

I, for one, do not believe that there are more single young ladies than single young men. However, like the rest of the speculators, I have very little evidence besides my own observations. But, at my table, there are plenty of wonderful (working) young men, who I cannot sell to a single yeshivish young lady simply because they are working, not learning. So, the population imbalance may be purely artificial and bolstered by the demands of young women who cannot bare to consider a working man who learns in the evenings and will support them and given them flexibility in the home.

And, lastly, I think that it is very, very important to concentrate on creating QUALITY marriages, not just a quantity of marriages. I believe that we all know or have heard about the increasing number of young couples who are divorcing after very, very shortlived marriages. Yet, again, I don't think there are any solid stats on the occurance of shortlived marriages, but if there really is an increase, it might serve us well to understand the underpinnings before buying into a plan that may exasperate some of the issues (emotional immaturity, selfishness, financial issues, etc).

(Sorry for the disorganized thoughts and writing. I'm just putting out my thoughts in a brainstorming way).

9:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"at my table, there are plenty of wonderful (working) young men, who I cannot sell to a single yeshivish young lady simply because they are working, not learning."

Maybe offer them free of charge? ;-)

Another angle to explore would be if this proposal is part of a recent trend among some Yeshivish types to copy certain Hassidic practices (such as wearing black clothes and adopting the Hassidic upsheren custom). The grass may seem greener on the other side and the people on the other side may claim it's greener there, but is it actually so ?

1:16 AM  
Blogger Romach said...

I'd be interested in seeing this study. A priori, something doesn't fit. If beforehand guys got married at 18, and now, because they go to Israel, they get married at 20 or 21, the shidduch crises should only span 3 years. (Assuming no change in the age of girls marrying).

For the first group of guys going to Yeshiva, and for the next 2-3 years, there would be a dearth of men. Possibly for a few more afterwards as everything gets sorted out. But this "crisis" has been spoken about for a lot longer. Furthermore, the effect should decrease with time, but the hype has just gone up.

12:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Romach,
No, since the population grows by 'X' percent (3-4?) every year, the disparity would get larger every year, not only would it increase, it would do nso exponentially, if in year 1 ten more girls than boys were on the market, year 2 it would be 10 + ten, plus the population growth, the 3rd year it would be the total of the 2nd year, + the equal percentage increase of the second year over the 1st year etc. I'm sure one who is mpre fluent in mathematics can explain it better, but suffice it to say the number would keep growing along with the population

1:24 AM  

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